HT-b cam - improved version

[sam2019]

I encountered significantly less starting problems with a 207 psi 477 vs the decompressor-less cam alone.
In combination (now I have both in again) this phenomenon occurs again more frequently. I can always fix it with going into gear and forcefully pushing the bike either back or forward.
There is one part that seems to somehow influence the strength of the starter (apart from what Dool pointed out) and it goes by the name
574393/E - relay starter. At around 1000 INR its not too expensive and having had 2 of them replaced already I keep one to avoid long wait time in case it needs to be ordered.

 

[Dool]

I was going to replace this unit with a universal one, I decided against that because of the number of connections I would have to make ie 2 more .

That is why I just cut as much cable off as possible, resistance is calculated over length to determine loss so I made them as short as possible.

One advantage with the universal one is the exposed terminals which can be shorted to bypass the starter switch ( in emergencies )

 

[Old Man Himmie]

I was going to replace this unit with a universal one, I decided against that because of the number of connections I would have to make ie 2 more .

That is why I just cut as much cable off as possible, resistance is calculated over length to determine loss so I made them as short as possible.

One advantage with the universal one is the exposed terminals which can be shorted to bypass the starter switch ( in emergencies )

I found that after bypassing the clutch lever switch I rarely have an issue starting now. I think what is going on is there is so much voltage loss from the ground wire thru the clutch switch. Also with the positive voltage from the starter switch going to the starter solenoid it just doesn’t get a good hit to the contacts of the starter solenoid when it’s actuated. These are both small wires that have to run a long way to the starter solenoid.
As a test I wired up my old RE battery directly to the starter with good size conductors and the starter had no problem turning the engine over. This tells me the starter motor is more than capable of turning these engines over without the aid of the decompression feature.
I do think the starter solenoid could be better also and I will be trying a Yamaha type starter solenoid just to see if I can tell if the engine is more willing to turn over similar to having the battery hooked straight to the starter. Stay tuned.

 

[sam2019]

on a bs6 if you disable that switch you can only start in neutral.

 

[Dool]

Surely that is the purpose of the switch, to ensure that the bike is in Neutral.

 

[sam2019]

Surely that is the purpose of the switch, to ensure that the bike is in Neutral.

or you pulled the clutch, but if disabled that option vanishes

 

[Dool]

Yes now you have to find neutral fast, hopefully you havent fitted the 8 plate clutch upgrade which doesent help.
Im keeping that switch enabled

 

[Sasa]

Bob the wires used are quite thin and also too long just by using a couple of eyelet terminals I cut the wires down to length and put new terminals on them.
That's helps and Im sure the Decomp does also.

That would be the real solution to a stoopid problem RE created when it made the wire loom. It's silly to use long thin wires for a starter, since it has to carry a lot of amps, and with a thin wire most of them get lost in the path due to joule effect (converted to heat in the wire).

A patch would be to use a high CCA rated battery, but that's a patch, non a real solution to the problem.

I'll take a look at my own wiring loom when I dismantle the bike...

 

[RCruiser]

Sasa, please take a Lot of Pictures when you do this, as I'd like to replicate it.
Peter, surly this would be the real solution to this issue, no? What I mean to say is, that you 'shortened the wire', but THAT wire was already too unsubstantial, correct?

 

[sam2019]

I was thinking of a "starter switch" like we have in airplanes where you press a button and the starter engages. It could be situated somewhere under the tank near the TB and have a direct battery-starter connect (maybe with a 50 amp fuse) working independent of the ignition switch. That stock circuit could still be left in place.

 

[Sasa]

I was thinking of a "starter switch" like we have in airplanes where you press a button and the starter engages. It could be situated somewhere under the tank near the TB and have a direct battery-starter connect (maybe with a 50 amp fuse) working independent of the ignition switch. That stock circuit could still be left in place.

It would require a momentary switch able to carry A LOT of amps, something military grade. Such a switch would easily cost you 4/500€. Any other kind of switch would simply burn in a couple of starts.
Alternatively you would have to use a high power relay like the one already present or connect to the existing one, but then you’d be back to square one, since the flimsy cables are those between the stock high power relay and the starter motor…

 

[sam2019]

since the flimsy cables are those between the stock high power relay and the starter motor…

so we just replace those - wasnt that what Dool was planing?

 

[Sasa]

so we just replace those - wasnt that what Dool was planing?

exactly.

 

[Dool]

Even before I replaced the Battery I reduced the length of the cables, any reduction in length is a benefit ( This perhaps the only instance I can think of where this works ) and the stock starter relay is adequate.
Lithium batteries are usually higher voltage also just a bit and that and the shorter cables has served me ok

 

[Old Man Himmie]

on a bs6 if you disable that switch you can only start in neutral.

I have a 2022 NA model and I have bypassed and completely removed the clutch switch as well as bypassed the side stand switch and can start it in any gear. I’ve done this on all the modern on/off-road bikes I’ve owned. I grew up without these safety features with no issue and see them as more of a nuisance than anything and I’m old. Lol

 

[RCruiser]

Hey OMH I'm old too and can do without so many 'safety features'. In fact I followed your lead and removed the Clutch and Side-stand Switches, but as I was hoping to also see the results that you posted regarding 'no more labored starting' of the bike, I unfortunately have not had the same results as you. My bike still act's like it doesn't have a De-Compressor, or a bad battery. I'd love a solution and believe that we're onto to one...
Bob

 

[Dool]

Try cutting the cables down to length, if that doesn't work then perhaps an accessory Relay and you can wire in a start button as close to it as possible say under the seat/side cover as an extra at the same time.
Have you ever tried finding the Heat, when your holding the button and nothings happening usually some connection is getting Hot.
Gotta quickly run your fingers over the various connection/cables to feel it, or use a Thermometer,

 

[Old Man Himmie]

Hey OMH I'm old too and can do without so many 'safety features'. In fact I followed your lead and removed the Clutch and Side-stand Switches, but as I was hoping to also see the results that you posted regarding 'no more labored starting' of the bike, I unfortunately have not had the same results as you. My bike still act's like it doesn't have a De-Compressor, or a bad battery. I'd love a solution and believe that we're onto to one...
Bob

Bob, sorry you didn’t see any improvement with your starter. I think there are a lot of variables in play with this whole starter system. Dool had a good suggestion about looking for hot areas due to bad connections. The cables I used to hook my old batter directly to the starter for testing had a bad crimp and it got hot right away so I soldered it and didn’t have an issue after that. I would recommend if you have a good larger gauge cable laying around with ring terminals is to disconnect the factory cable from the starter motor and hook up your test cable to the starter motor. With the key off of course, touch the other end of your test cable to the positive post of the battery. I would hold the loose terminal with a pliers when touching the battery because it can get hot when making the connection. It works best to hit it hard and fast to make a good connection that will turn the starter over. This will at least tell you if your starter is strong enough to turn your engine over well. Once this is verified you can start looking at other areas within the starting circuit to determine where the weak point is. I should be getting my aftermarket starter solenoid later this week and will be able to see if it works better or worse than the OEM one.

 

[Old Man Himmie]

I was able to install my new starter relay and am pleased how well the bike turns over. Although after bypassing the clutch switch I wasn’t having the issue with the starter stalling out that I had before it seems the bike spins over more freely now. I replaced the original cables that I’m guessing were 10 gauge with some 8 gauge cable I had laying around. I also ran a ground wire directly to the starter relay coil since I had bypassed the clutch switch anyway. I did this to eliminate the long run of the ground from the clutch switch.
I was able to mount the new starter relay to the same tab that the original relay was attached to.
Time will tell if the new starter relay will hold up well but I like being able to use a heavier gauge wire that doesn’t get warm while turning the motor over. Now I feel the weak link as far as the wiring goes is the ground wire running from the battery to the starter motor since it only looks to be 10 gauge as well.

 

[sam2019]

For the metric people: 8 Gauge = 4.1mm, 10 gauge = 3.2mm